Todd Reed: [00:00:00] Welcome to Keeping the Lights On. I'm your host, Todd Reid, and on this podcast I connect with the owners and pros who design, build, and maintain our electrical communications and industrial world to explore the best ways forward. Today I'm speaking with Steve Banis, professor of practice and director, graduate studies and construction management programs at the James McKelvey School of Engineering at Washington University in St.

A non-traditional academic Banis brings a full spectrum of construction industry experience to the classroom. During his industry career, he was directly responsible for acquiring and or managing over 1 billion of construction work. His over 40 years of hands-on experience of endowed him with a constructor's viewpoint, enabling him to share a unique, unparalleled perspective.

Throughout his directorship, Banas has created, redesigned and launched programs and courses for professionals and aspiring professionals who are particularly motivated to become integrators, [00:01:00] leaders, and managers with enhanced capabilities to integrate teams within the built environment for greater project success.

In this episode, Steve and I discuss how the discipline of construction management can help move the construction process from one that is can often be fragmented and adversarial to one that is integrated and collaborative. We'll discuss why this is so vital for the future of construction. Let's get into the show.

So, you know, we start each episode by celebrating the foods that mean the most to us, whether it's a work tradition or simply a place or meal, that means a lot to you. So, Steve, if you were to host a group of your students, or maybe if you hosted me for a get together, where would you take them and what makes it a favorite of yours?

Steve Bannes: Let me give you two answers to that question. Taking a group of students, it is my tradition that at the end of the semester following. Students kind of final projects, [00:02:00] presentations that we go over to Blueberry Hill and have a toast and have some food and just kind of spend some time together outside of the classroom.

I learned when I was kind of a project manager that you need to take some time to celebr. Some of the successes. And so I was trying to celebrate the success at the end of the semester and, and it's sort of become this big tradition now. Students are always asking like, Hey, we're going to Blueberry Hill at the end of the semester.

When I have people, uh, come to St. Louis. I usually recommend, uh, brasserie It's part of the niche group and they just do a great job. And the executive chef and the pastry chef over there are, um, acquaintances. We've, we've known each other. And so it's always so dependable and reliable and I can kind of ask, Hey, what's, uh, on the menu you got anything sort of special or that you're working on that we might try and, [00:03:00] and that allows us to have some, really kind of unique dining experie.

Todd Reed: Uh, but let's talk about. Brassie. So I have actually been there. Uh, it was amazing. It's one of those places, uh, someone took us to dinner there and my wife and I, and I have a new favorite place in St. Louis, so I'm not much of a foodie. You definitely are a foodie. We've had some conversations beforehand.

So you've got a lot of, uh, I have a lot more insight into that sort of thing than I do, but it it is amazing. Um, what's your favorite item is there, if you know, again, I was with you, you might recommend to me,

Steve Bannes: Well, the last thing thing I. Had there was actually at brunch and it was a, uh, it was a French toast actually, and it was just absolutely had a little fruit, had had, you know, this homemade sort of mapley syrup concoction and it was just, just delicious.

Todd Reed: Oh yeah, that sounds great.

Steve Bannes: brunch.

Todd Reed: I've heard that. I've heard it's hard to get in, so complain. [00:04:00] So you mentioned that they are a part of, uh, the, the niche of food group. Uh, which, um, you know, I kind of was looking 'em up after you and I had our prior discussion and they're not, um, strangers to the challenges of construction in today's environment.

Right. I, I mean, uh, if we had them in here, I'm sure they could tell us a story after story of construction horror stories and all the locations they've built. Um, and they are a good illustration really of why construction has struggled over the years or how, you know, how it's struggled in kind of the results of that.

Cuz each of their projects, uh, in particular appear to be pretty unique. They're not a cut cookie cutter franchise chain. uh, a good example of most construction projects. Really. My wife earlier, she brought up an article to me that was just in the New York Times, an op-ed piece. I dunno if you saw it by Ezra Klein, but it's interesting, I mean, cuz it says the title of the story is, the Story Construction Tells About America's Economy is Disturbing.

Steve, why do we continue to hear horror stories regarding construction from simple remodels to multi-building campuses?[00:05:00]

Steve Bannes: Construction is is an industry that has progressed. But in some respects not so much. You know, we look at all of the technology that's available today, but it's kind of gets back down to some real basic sort of people skills that, traditionally have prevented us from, uh, working in the most efficient and most effective sort of way.

For example, one of the biggest problems that I see in the construction industry is the lack of, and I'm not even gonna say integration yet, because I think we've gotta get more to collaboration before we can start really thinking about integration. And it comes, uh, in many cases, comes from our. when I speak [00:06:00] of tradition, I'm gonna talk about the traditional delivery system, which is design, bid, build, architects and engineers. Design. It goes out for bid. The low bidder typically is award the contract and then begins construction. there is. You know, some collaboration between architect and engineer to create the design, but it lacks any other collaborative input. and so what ends up happening is you get, A project that the construction problems begin to surface during the bidding phase, and it, it creates some tensions and difficulties. In fact, I like to refer to the delivery system as adversarial in nature. For example, I, I, you would tell any designer.

You know, when you ask me to bid a [00:07:00] project, you're asking me to get low. You're asking me to use all of my expertise to figure out how I can bid this project strictly per the plans and specifications and get low. That's, that's where my energy and attention and expertise has gotta be focused. Is that the best way to buy for most projects?

No. I don't believe it is the best way to buy. And it creates this adversarial relationship because in my efforts to do that, to try to figure out how to do it strictly per plan specs and to get low, there's a disconnect between my ability to look at something that says this may be problematic in the future, but I can't assume it's gonna be problematic because that adds.

So I'm still trying to get low, right? And so when it becomes problematic, what happens? I point the finger at the designers and say, what? Sorry? Strictly per plans and [00:08:00] specs. And because in the traditional delivery system, there's no formal legal relationship between designers and constructors. It puts the owner back in the middle as the ultimate referee, if you will, to some of these.

Problems, that creates a, a really, bad experience for everybody involved in the process.

Todd Reed: what's at stake if we don't change the way we manage construction projects?

Steve Bannes: What's at stake is, you know, we remain status quo, which is not a great way to deliver design and construction. it's problematic. It the adversarial relationships that it, presents, that's not, what owners. Really want. you know, construction from an owner's perspective is very fragmented, and it is, it's very fragmented, unlike manufacturing.

where you [00:09:00] get, you know, time and research and development and your quality control Is a lot easier to manage because it's basically all in-house. In construction, you've got designers doing their things. You got a, uh, typically a, like a general contractor doing his thing.

You've got subs, subcontractors and sub subs and material suppliers and service providers. So you've got all these people in there, and if you're structured in a way that is for adversarial. you know, the, our status quo is disruptive because it's the adversarial nature of the business, not disruptive, because we're employing a lot of new technologies and how do we get those things integrated into our process?

Todd Reed: I guess, let me ask you, I, I made an assumption that construction is not, Uh, it's safer from disruption. Is that accurate?

Steve Bannes: Um, I don't think it's accurate. I, I think construction [00:10:00] is, It can fall victim to disruption in a variety of ways. We're seeing a little bit of that in terms of labor issues. We're seeing a little bit of that in terms of inflation, uh, in terms of supply chain. and so those outside factors are disrupting the way we have traditionally done business.

Todd Reed: Yeah. I mean, one thing that I. Was at a conference called Advancing Prefab, and they had speakers there and they had a speaker from a hotel chain in Europe who is doing everything. almost all things prefab and, modular, really more and factory built and. Like just shipping it to the site and putting it in.

Now there's still people working on the building and, you know, um, tech trade people working in the factory, but much less, and then much less on that job site. It's really, really almost plug and play. And I know we're far from that from a lot of things, but you know, they're shipping in buildings from other locations.

So to me that's a pretty biggest disruption. Way we've done things. [00:11:00] Um, what are some of the ways that you've seen the industry trying to solve this efficiency, productivity, you know, this, this adversarial, fragmented problem.

Steve Bannes: Probably the, the. Way is using, um, non-traditional delivery systems. So in a non-traditional delivery system. Uh, and it, I'll, I'll focus really on construction management, whether that's an agency or, or at risk or design build, in those delivery systems. We're bringing together a number of, of professionals at the earliest stages of design.

So if, if I, I can be in a room with architects and engineers, and I'm the construction professional. My role is to basically review. What the designers are creating and to look at that through the eyes of constructability, how is this gonna get built? it, [00:12:00] it allows for a conversation to happen, in which we all the team, including the owner, I love when the owner's there, can start to have input at the earliest possible time when those conversations are most influe.

So, for example, in the traditional delivery system, the, the construction people aren't looking at the documents until it's complete. It's ready for bid. If I have a, a, if I have a problem, I see a potential problem, and I call the architect and say, Hey, we should address this potential problem. Chances are I'm gonna be told, yeah, we'll talk about that sometime later.

These are the documents we gotta bid this. So my opportunity or our constructor's opportunity to be influential is gone because they don't have time. No. They don't want to take the, the money to redesign something. It might be a great idea. In fact, I've had conversations with designers. They're like, gosh, that's a [00:13:00] great idea.

I wish I would've known about that earlier. Right. Yeah. Okay, well, what are we gonna do now? Um, by bringing all these people together. Early, um, we can have a lot more impact in, into, you know, the ultimate design and constructability of that project. For example, I was part of a team and, uh, my students will know this as my custom blue glass story, but, um, The architect des it was a, a new headquarters building.

The architect had had designed this curtain wall exterior and had said, you know, it would really be cool as if we had, uh, a curtain wall glass that was a custom blue glass to meet the, the, uh, same color of blue in your logo or in your branding package. Now the [00:14:00] architect says that his eyes are, he's excited and the owner is hearing that and his reaction is excited and I'm hearing that and going, oh, that's a problem.

And so I said, look, we, we wanna, we wanna study this, we want to do a little value engineering study to determine. The impact of custom blue glass curtain wall is to both cost and time. And so we did that and came back and as a team, you know, I presented and said, okay, the cost element is gonna be significant.

However, the time element is gonna be huge because. We were gonna have to start a process to go through and specify the color to get sample glass panels made, get them shipped to the job site, get them installed in a sample panel, get them evaluated. And then the real question was, well, what if this isn't right, [00:15:00] then no, we're gonna do that again.

And what effect does that have on the schedule? And so after talking about all. The owner decided to go with a standard blue glass, not because of the cost, but because of the time impact that it had on his project.

Todd Reed: let's move away from the problem and start to look towards the future. So, can you imagine a world where this, these challenges that you've brought up are solved?

What does that world and the industry look like then?

Steve Bannes: Well, it, it moves us more into collaboration. The construction industry, the built environment loves the word collaboration. And in some cases we're doing some collaboration, but I think the world of the future is gonna move us more towards integration.

we do have now and talk about integrated project delivery. In my experience, we're not really doing a lot of integrated work. construction management and design build. I think there are elements that I'll call, [00:16:00] um, integration light because it's not necessarily, a contractual thing. Professionals are, are just doing it.

They're working together to solve these problems. They're less focused. Some of the legal, how much time do I have to review these shop drawings? The contract says this, and they're working and saying, okay, we realize that this is gonna be critical and we need to expedite this so we as a team agree that we're gonna get this done in a much shorter period of time.

That's more of, of the integration that I'm talking about, but I think the, the real challenge and, try to address. Academically is, the ability to effectively communicate with other professionals in the built environment. we really don't have that. And coming out of our tradition, architects and engineers, designed contractors had their three weeks and they went off and, bid the project and then they built the project.

[00:17:00] a lot of silos. we still have some of those silos, pretty well. Securely in place, uh, within our professional built environment world. And so one of the things that I contend and, we try to build this into our academic program is what I'll refer to as interdisciplinary fluency. so I, I'll give you an example.

I've had the. Privilege really of being on sort of all sides of the professional roles of the built environment. So I've worked with owners and I've worked with architects and I've worked with obviously construction professionals and you can be at a, a meeting. And depending on who you're with, the conversation will go something like this.

You leave the meeting, you get in the car, and all the constructors say, what are the architects talking about? just [00:18:00] tell me what you want. engineers will be like, yeah, I don't, I don't get this piece. The architects are like, why don't the contractors get this? We explain it so clearly and it's because we speak different languages and those languages aren't necessarily, in, in the words that we use because we use enough common words.

It's in the definitions or the understandings, which lead to being able to really sort of comprehend. So if I develop some interdisciplinary fluency I can speak architect, But what it really allows me to do is to understand What value the architect is trying to create in this design element. Now I can have a conversation about that and maybe that conversation can lead into a constructability conversation. So are there other ways that we can achieve what [00:19:00] you try are trying to achieve from a value perspective, design-wise, and, and make that more construct.

by learning to sort of speak more of the languages, I contend that we can become better integrators and I think it's really necessary to being a better integrator. I tell my students are the next generation of integrators in the built environment. Whether they work for a construction manager or they work for, I, I mean, I've got students, or I've got alums that work, from the largest construction management firms to, in this case for this podcast, electrical subcontractors who are very involved you know, design build, design assist, their understanding of a broader.

construction world and these players in, it gives them, I think, a distinct advantage in being able to communicate more effectively.

Todd Reed: so let's get a little bit into what a construction [00:20:00] management program at the university. what, what is it that you're doing to help construction get there, help these people get there?

Steve Bannes: Our, our program is really pretty unique, um, because it creates opportunities to bring, the built environment together. So the, we have a joint program, so I have students that are working on a master of architecture degree and a master of construction management degree s. I have students who are working on a, uh, bachelor's of science degree in engineering and a master of construction management degree, and I have construction management professionals, working professionals who, want to broaden their educat.

by working on a master of construction management degree. we also have some, uh, what I'll call industry stakeholders that, choose to work on a graduate certificate in construction management. Um, stakeholders might include, lawyers, construction lawyers, [00:21:00] uh, accountants, people in insurance and bonding.

To give them the skills to really make them a better, uh, consultant to their clients by understanding their client's business better. and so that group of students in the same classroom creates a diversity, uh, that allows us to explore issues in the built environment from those different perspectives.

I love to put the construction managers in the position of, of architects and engineers because, you know, they're used to kind of fighting, quote unquote with some of these people. Uh, when you start to see their, their perspectives and you start to learn their value proposition, it becomes a much more interesting convers.

Todd Reed: Do you have some examples or of the ideas and, and the things that you and your students have worked through and how they apply to the real world?

Steve Bannes: I, I would like [00:22:00] to say that virtually everything we do is really real world. Uh, I'm a non-traditional academic, uh, which means that I spent the first, About 30 years of my career in, uh, designing construction, being a general contractor, construction manager. So one of the things that I have brought to the university is this very pragmatic kind of approach.

mo. Most of my faculty are, uh, adjunct professors. So they're bringing in. Real examples from things that are happened currently in in industry. so we talk about a lot of issues that are sort of, uh, current events. We want to talk. You know how to integrate pre-fabrication, how do we integrate more people into the design construct process at a very early point, um, how do we integrate that? You gotta [00:23:00] integrate that at the earliest part of the design phase, and you have to do it there because the designers, architects, and engineers are typically not gonna be the subject matter experts. They're not gonna necessarily have the skill sets. To really develop that. So I want to get meps at the table to talk about design build in a design build sort of criteria, how they can implement some prefabrication and some elements of, uh, maybe even modular construction.

Uh, there's a hospital here in St. Louis that has done that. And done it quite successfully. the, the mechanical contractors and, and, and it was really a joint effort. It was mechanical and electrical subcontractors. They pre-fabricated these rooftop units, so all the piping [00:24:00] and all the electrical controls and everything was built into these big frames, and they literally flew 'em.

Put 'em on the roof, and it was easy to make all these connections and get that in place in a much quicker time and much more accurately because working up on a rooftop is problematic, to get that done accurately and quickly, and to be able to do that inside of a prefabrication facility, was a huge benefit to that project.

They also looked at modularizing components for patient bathrooms. Again, something that, provided a great benefit to the project but would've never happened. Without a delivery system that allows those conversations and those collaborations to take place at the earliest [00:25:00] stages of design. So one of the things that we're trying to change is the notion that, architects and engineers, design contractors build. I would argue that architects and engineers and contractors really should be part of the design and construct process. When I first came into the industry, you know, there was, uh, a few architects in town that I considered to be master builders.

They never took on a, a lot of projects. and they were virtually on the project every day because of that. as a result, when you had problems, you know, he had issues, the architect and the contractor typically work together to solve that problem.

today we've formalized that with RFIs and, it's a longer process, but for an architect to take some responsibility during the construction as a problem solver for our constructor. and this goes from the big prime contractors or construction managers [00:26:00] to, meps and, and other contractors that might be able to, be part of a conversation about materials and methods of construction.

To integrate that into design at an early phase allows us to, uh, to I think, have a must a much. Efficient design construction process.

Todd Reed: What are maybe a couple things. Someone could do to maybe start kind of moving down this road, to get better construction management until they are able to either get the training themselves or hire someone or something to do that.

Steve Bannes: There's a lot of things that can be done. Let me maybe address this sort of by group. Um, so let's take owners for example. I, I think a lot of owners, view design and construction procurement as a purchasing decision and it's not, uh, procurement of design and construction really [00:27:00] is about determining.

A project execution strategy. Um, so when we look at it from a cur a procurement perspective, it's easy to see why we use a traditional delivery system. Um, because what are we gonna measure? We're gonna measure cost and time. What's the easiest things to measure? Cost and time. What's the things to, to measure that don't require any construction or design expertise, cost and time.

Anybody a, a purchasing? Knows who's low and who's got the shortest duration. Easy decision, but that's not gonna guarantee that you're going to get the project that you want or that the process is gonna be smooth. Or, you know, maybe less problem free. cuz you just don't know. So I encourage owners to look at their procurement as a, [00:28:00] we're, we're going to decide on what our project execution strategy is and look at other delivery systems.

and there's tools for doing that that are out there. Uh, construction Industry Institute as a a. That helps. Owners determine, you know, what the best project delivery system is for that project. I would also argue that e even a single owner, um, take Washington University for example, there are times when, you know, construction management at risk is the right project delivery system.

There are times when if we had an infrastructure project, um, maybe design build is the. Delivery system. so I mean it, for every given owner, there's a variety of different delivery systems that work. So open your minds to all those possibilities. I really encourage every owner to spend more time[00:29:00] in.

The design phase of a project. It's great when you can integrate people and bring in the collaboration for, you know, construction and and MEP and those kind of things, but allow designers to have more time to design. One of the problems that I think. We're faced, uh, and it's a result of technology is a combination of this, you know, I'm gonna look at that delivery as a procurement decision.

And so owners sometimes are asking designers to do. A, a design, a complete design in less time. And sometimes they think that that's easy for them to do because, well, you know, we've got all this technology. . And I think today we try to compress design because we've got all this technology. And if somebody makes a mistake, oh, that's easy just to change that and drag and drop things in and make it what it, it is. And so I encourage [00:30:00] owners everywhere to spend more time.

And yes, I know this is gonna cost more money, but spend more time in design. And when you can integrate constructability into that, you really get a, a benefit of, you know, having a broader perspective across the professional disciplines, the built environ. Who are asking the questions and in some cases, challenging some of the design and really getting to a point where, the owner in fact feels like they're much more a part of design than they have ever been before.

So that's for the owners, for, um, contractors I think are, moving in a positive direction towards, trying to understand how they can be more beneficial, especially in the alternative delivery systems. And I think, for the most part, the general contractors really, in fact mostly [00:31:00] are construction managers at risk and even some are doing design build.

So they're, they're kind of across all those disciplines. I think for the, um, for the subcontractors in particular, the, especially the design build subcontractors, we gotta find a way for. Owners to value what they bring to the table. And I think trying to have subcontractors, uh, in a position where construction managers better understand how they can work together, and then the construction side of the process is in a better position to educate. Owners and, and designers on, on what we can bring to the table as opposed to, you know, thinking about, well, we'll design all this and then we'll figure out the construction People are gonna figure out the methods and procedures of construction. , and I [00:32:00] think when we can have those opportunities, we get better design and we get more efficient construction.

Todd Reed: We've had lots of discussions with, you know, people about moving people earlier into that whole construction process. Um, but yeah, having a manager then that can manage that grouping, cuz you're right, it, it can then get too many cooks in the kitchen type thing to go back to the cooking examples, but you have to have your chef that can direct all.

Creativity and all that to really make sure that it comes to that end result. I mean, we could have, gosh, around, we could have gone down a whole example of trying to make some amazing food at Brassie the way construction's done. What would it turn out? . And then when? When would you get your food the next day?

Steve Bannes: Yeah, not necessarily. I mean that, that's a great example because. Uh, we did some, some research, and I was trying to, to kind of figure out, The characteristics of what industry professionals consider to be, you know, sort of their best projects, so we asked a bunch of [00:33:00] questions. And the first common thread was I, I'll describe this as they were all what I would call kind of emergency projects. And so we explored that more deeply. Emergency projects has a connotation of, something's happened and, uh, the response ha has to be immediate.

It has to be. quick, now we gotta get this operation back online, whatever the case might be. And so then we started asking more questions, diver dive questions about what made that sort of the ideal project. coming from a contractor perspective, I really thought. we were gonna see that from the contractor side.

What made it a great project was they were basically earning more fee. What I found was that fee wasn't a part of it. What was a part of it was what I'll call the collaboration [00:34:00] integration. Environment that they were in, they were working together a lot more. Uh, I'll give you an example. The shop drawings, submittals were always a problem. How do we expedite that? So nobody's looking at the contract and what it says about the timetable for turning around these documents. Everybody was sort of in the same space. So a, a contractor would bring their shop drawings in and we would have the contract, the general contractor, the engineers, and the architects all in the same room.

And they would almost be evaluating these and reviewing these at the same. So they're working together on this. In the end, what made these emergency projects their best projects was they felt like they were this integrated team in designing and building these projects. And so, again, I think anything that can be done to bring those things together and, and one other note on, you know, like subcontractors.

and, and, and even general contractors and cms, I have [00:35:00] found that in all cases everybody's gotta have a solid value proposition. So why is pre-fabrication a value to the owner? Why is it a value to the architects and the engineer? We need to be able to answer those questions. when BIM technology, building information modeling came out, we added, we did an industry, did a great job of articulating a value proposition for industry.

We talked about the benefits during construction. We talked about the benefits during design, and what we had was owners that kind of came and said, okay, but why should I pay for that? It benefits you guys. Why don't you just do it? Why? Why is, why are we paying more for this? So we had to articulate a value proposition for the.

And I think we have [00:36:00] to do the same thing What does this mechanical, electrical subcontractor design build subcontractor who has these great ideas on how to employ prefabrication on a project, how do we present that value proposition to all of the people involved? manager, design team owner so that everybody says, Hey, that's a no-brainer, and, and then I think we'll start to see a lot more opportunities to integrate some of that technology in construction in the United States. To me, it all gets back down to that sort of, that delivery system and, and the traditional roles that we've all played. We've gotta get away from that. We've gotta look at ourselves and say, how do we become integrators? Whether I am [00:37:00] working for an electrical subcontractor, I, I work with an electrical subcontractor here in St.

Louis. Now he's ask him who your inter you tell me who your integrators are, who are the people that are gonna be out talking to the, the GCs and the cms and the architects and engineers and, and possibly the owners about. What value you're bringing to the table. If you can bring value to the table, by the way, you begin to reduce cost as a significant measure. Oh, I'm getting value for this. I'm a little less worried about what it's costing me.

Todd Reed: I, I can tell that we could, uh, go on for a long time here cuz we, it's got a lot of energy and passion, I like to close out my conversations about focusing on the why of what we do. So what motivates you to do this day in and day out? What keeps you excited and passionate about what you do?

Steve Bannes: It's interesting because, When I made the [00:38:00] transition from being in the industry to academia, a lot of people said, why, why are you doing this? it's, it's kind of one of those questions that's difficult to answer in some respects. But the most simplistic answer is, my students, I wanted to.

Give back to the industry a way that, uh, paid forward some of the blessings that I had received growing up in, in the construction industry and being part of it. I liked the opportunity and I had, I had some opportunities to engage with some students prior to being. Actually in academia, but I, but for me, it's really that to, to watch my students, grow as, as professionals.

they're just a wonderful group of people and, I have a lot of, career friends as a result of relationships that I've established with students over the years. [00:39:00] And, uh, that's to me is sort of priceless.

Todd Reed: Well, that's great Steve. You know, thank you so much for being here. It's been great to have you on the show.

Steve Bannes: Thank you, Todd. It's been a pleasure.

Todd Reed: That was my conversation with Steve Banis, professor of practice and director at the James Kelley School of Engineering at Washington University in St. Louis. You can connect with Steve and what he's working on by heading to the links in the show notes. So here's what I took away from my conversation with Steve.

Uh, one the importance of construction professionals. From all sides building out their interdisciplinary fluency to understand how all stakeholders in a construction project view value and what's important to them. The second, uh, takeaway I got was how important a role is. Uh, a well-rounded construction manager can play in bringing all stakeholders in a project together to achieve a more efficient and profitable result for all.

If you enjoyed this episode, you can help us grow this show by subscribing and leaving a five [00:40:00] star rating in your favorite podcast player. Thanks for listening to this episode of Keeping the Lights on. We'll see you next time.